Still, more Cicero
Once again,
I was surprised that the classical ideas of rhetoric spread to the Jewish community in
Agricola’s work seemed like it would have been used quote frequently during our time. From the description is sounded like a cliff-note version of how to practice rhetoric. The Greeks or Romans never came across as lazy in their writing so it is interesting that since the Renaissance rhetoricians based a lot of their teachings off of Greeks and Romans that they might be making shortcuts. I’m not saying that Agricola is advocating for laziness, that section just brought a few questions to mind.
Although history is inevitable, I was disappointed when I started reading about science taking the place of rhetoric. In the very beginning of the introduction it states, “by the end of the period, people who were post interested in the power of language seemed most eager to rid this power of any taint of eloquence” (556). The discovery of science was unavoidable but it is unfortunate that finding answers through speaking or oratory skills were looked down upon.
Questions:
If rhetoric was just as important today as it was during the early Renaissance and was taught to the same extent, what would be different about our society? About our politics? About
During the Renaissance Cicero was commonly taught to students; is he your top choice to teach your students of rhetoric? Why or why not? Why do you think
How is Copia important for writing today? Is this something teachers should still focus on?
Which politician would Erasmus support? Why?
What do you think Ramus would have said about Obama and his rhetoric?
posted by Megan @ 9:20 PM
4 comments
4 Comments:
Hi, Megan.
Probably Cicero was so popular and respected because he wrote in Latin, and the educated medievals could read him. He was the best rhetorician in Latin, in other words. AND he brought forward so many Greek insights AND he wrote in a superb style. What's not to love?
When you ask whether Copia should be used by writing teachers today, do you mean Erasmus' book on style? It's hard to answer that question. I don't know much about that book except that it emphasized style but "protest[ed] against stylistic display" (568).
Well, if rhetoric were just as important today as it was in the early renaissance... well, the writing and rhetoric program would have more funding and lots more students! VTB would be only one of ten historians of rhetoric. Hmmm, there might be more writing/rhetoric students than literature/poetry students, that's for sure. There would be, of course, tons more humanities courses and degrees and very few, if any, science degrees. We probably wouldn't have our land grant status! Perhaps we'd be a humanities-grant university.
Let's see.... What would Ramus think of Barack Obama? Oh, he'd probably say, of course, that Obama was just style, not substance. On the other hand, Ramus might like him, too, since Ramus was so ready to "violently" reject past intellectual traditions (like scholasticism) and past authorities (like Aristotle and Cicero!). So maybe Ramus would be attracted to a candidate which would break the race barrier to the white house. Hmmm, what does anyone else think? Maybe Ramus wasn't that interested in social improvement, on the other hand.
Laura
Megan--These are some of the best questions I've received on a rhetoric blog. Remember to bring them with you to class, and we'll have some fun with them. It is nice to think you're headed for middle school teaching. Excellent!
After reading Erasmus and Ramus tonight, I came back to this posting and although I'm not sure I have a good answer, these are entertaining questions.
How is Copia important today? Perhaps it can prepare a speaker or writer to be original. (And I'm simply thinking of Variety of Expression, not the other elements of the work.) I think it's an exercise (albeit over the top) in extreme eloquence that is fun and challenging. Of course, it's almost ridiculous, but I bet students from about 5th grade through graduate school can appreciate reading this section, and would be willing to engage in a similar classroom activity. In fact, I'm willing to forego my presentation on 18th century British writing instruction in favor of spending 30 minutes as a class drafting various ways to say something like, "Hey, let's dance!"
Students could have a lot of fun with this, and perhaps we can move them away from the cliches we hear so regularly. Think of the importance of this skill in, say, public relations, or television broadcasting. (When I'm watching football, I regularly turn on music so that I don't have to hear another blockhead broadcaster talk about "grinding it out in the trenches," etc.)
As for what Ramus would have said about Obama, well, since Ramus was so determined to criticize the old rhetoricians, he may be quick to criticize Hillary simply for her association with a president who led for 8 years. On the other hand, he would probably appreciate Obama's rhetorical skills, but he might say that his audience needs to know more about him to pass judgement. (I think he'd say that about all of our contemporary politicians.) Look at McCain--he's an average speaker, and a shady person. He's failing in every area. But I think most of the rhetoricians would agree that too many modern politicians are less than great people.
I'm going to agree with Vicki on this one, and commend you for some thought-provoking questions.
I want to answer the question you posed about the ideal rhetor to follow. Cicero, while certainly the most noted rhetorician up to the Renaissance era, would not be my first choice. Of course, he is noted for his eloquent style, and in that respect I agree that he excels the others. If I were to choose only one, it might have to be Aristotle (*gasp* -- not Quintilian?!) because it is his writing that offers a firm foundation for the study of rhetoric. In it, we see how Aristotle looked to his surroundings as a starting point point for his arguments, but we also see him interacting with other texts. His ideas are original, and yet are scientifically-grounded, unlike the others.
Post a Comment
<< Home